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have we lost the joy of eating?


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#26 YodaTheWrinkledOne

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:01 PM

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 14 June 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

i have been over weight during periods of my life, i have started an exercise regime. i love food. my only problem with food is that i like it too much. every doctor i have seen in the last ten years has talked to me about weight management - the need to maintain a healthy weight range particularly as i inch towards menopause. are they all wrong?
No, most women put on weight (and often it's not an insignificant amount) during their 40s/50s when their hormones are slowly down and menopause is approaching. However, that is also the time when many women slow down on exercise and daily activities and happily indulge in 1-2 generous glasses of wine most nights, etc.

If you don't adjust your eating habits in your 40s/50s then it's more than likely you will put on weight. What you could eat in your 20s and 30s is often not the same food you should be eating in your 40s and 50s if you want to maintain the same weight into later life.

#27 AllyK81

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:01 PM

I love food. I think about food all the time and meal planning and cooking and matching it to a delicious bottle of wine is one of life's greatest pleasures.

But I do agree with the post above. There are some foods that are just bad for you with no nutritional content. They don't form part of our diet. Not even a little bit. Soft drinks, fast food and foods that are so refined that they don't even resemble food hold no interest for me. If I wouldn't eat it why would I give it to my kids?

There are still treat foods we have - there are plenty of delicious options.

We do have a responsibility to teach our kids about nutrition. My Mother didn't and it took me 15 years after leaving home to work it out for myself. I like eating healthy foods. I feel better when I eat them.

You can love food and enjoy food and still eat well.

#28 Froyo

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:04 PM

Moderation rather than deprivation was key in my over 20kg weight loss. Mindset made a huge difference. No demonising any foods, no "being good" or "being bad". It's been over four years now and I've maintained with ease, despite now being 47 and menopause being on the horizon.

Edited by Froyo, 14 June 2019 - 01:06 PM.


#29 EsmeLennox

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:04 PM

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 14 June 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

there has to be line then between obsessing (which i agree is unhelpful) and just awareness that - like all our actions - food choices have consequences. there’s no harm in teaching kids that, IMO.

Yeah, completely agree with this.

One of my kids eats way too many processed foods. I've been working hard with him on understanding that moderation of those processed foods is important and that we need more of certain foods with certain nutrients for healthy bodies.

#30 seayork2002

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:05 PM

View PostAllyK81, on 14 June 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

I love food. I think about food all the time and meal planning and cooking and matching it to a delicious bottle of wine is one of life's greatest pleasures.

But I do agree with the post above. There are some foods that are just bad for you with no nutritional content. They don't form part of our diet. Not even a little bit. Soft drinks, fast food and foods that are so refined that they don't even resemble food hold no interest for me. If I wouldn't eat it why would I give it to my kids?

There are still treat foods we have - there are plenty of delicious options.

We do have a responsibility to teach our kids about nutrition. My Mother didn't and it took me 15 years after leaving home to work it out for myself. I like eating healthy foods. I feel better when I eat them.

You can love food and enjoy food and still eat well.

My parents taught me about healthy eating but we still ate ice cream, soft drink same as going watching a tv show, playing snooker, reading a book - sure no actual benefit but things I enjoy same as eating a chocolate.

and same as our one glass glass of wine of Fri-Sun evening. DS knows we drink a glass of wine (or whisky some nights) but no we don't come roiling home drunk

#31 ~LemonMyrtle~

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:07 PM

I’ve also seen a trend of people diagnosing and treating their ailments with food changes, without proper medical care or advice. Like those Facebook posts that say drinking lemon juice will stop heart attacks, or water in the mornings will cure your arthritis, or whatever other silly stuff they come up with. People believe it and change their diet, based on dodgy information. This can be dangerous.

#32 purplekitty

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:14 PM

I think good nutrition and the need for healthy exercise should be taught in school.
Leave out the editorialising,buzzwords and judgment though.
Do it with science and with facts.
When you have pays. ed try not to marginalise and traumatise those that aren't pathetically inclined and slim.

So much of what is being preached at us is misinformation,lies and cult like.
Having a healthy relationship with food and exercise in not a crusade filled with negative feelings and obsessive denial of joyful eating with a pathological need for purity.

There is this whole wellness industry that is tied up with anti-some major food group,anti-GMO,anti-vaccination,anti medicine confusion.
It has bled into schools and mainstream.

The last people who should have their diets fiddled with in favour of fads  and elimination of foods is children.
It can be quite dangerous.

#33 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:14 PM

View Post~LemonMyrtle~, on 14 June 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

I’ve also seen a trend of people diagnosing and treating their ailments with food changes, without proper medical care or advice. Like those Facebook posts that say drinking lemon juice will stop heart attacks, or water in the mornings will cure your arthritis, or whatever other silly stuff they come up with. People believe it and change their diet, based on dodgy information. This can be dangerous.

oh yes - absolutely. drinking warm water with lemon, celery juice etc. all just ridiculous fads.

again, its a pity these things take hold because then it puts a question mark over all claims about types of foods and linking to ailments - some of which *are* based in sound science. i have a tendency towards insulin resistance - it contributed to my sub fertility around 10 years ago and a polycystic ovary. as a result - carbs and foods high in sugar aren’t good for me - food changes, ie - significantly cutting down on white starchy carbs and excess sugar had a direct beneficial health impact on me. and - i will say - i’m not a unique snow flake with this condition, it’s surprisingly common.


#34 CallMeFeral

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:17 PM

View Postseayork2002, on 14 June 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:

One thing  I have never understood is 'I crave carbs' - I may crave pasta or potato for example and they may have carbs in  them but to to me they are different foods.

so I crave the taste not the nutrition make up of it

same as I may want roast beef or lamb chops, sure meat and they contain protein but to my taste, different things

I crave genres like that. Like sometimes I'll crave something sweet, and anything sweet will satisfy that craving. Sometimes I crave savoury/salty and there are a few things that could satisfy that.
Occasionally I could crave a very specific food too.
Re craving carbs, that sounds more like someone who has noticed a trend in their cravings and is calling it out. Like when I'm doing the 5:2 I find myself drawn to salty fatty things, I've no idea why. But also carby things - breads pastas - they just draw my attention in a way say fruits don't. I think part if it is that sometimes your body tells you what it is wanting right then - and if it's a quick energy fix it might 'ask' you for sugar or carb in quite general terms.

View PostLucrezia Borgia, on 14 June 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

what’s wrong with telling kids to exercise? what’s wrong with a “should” narrative around different types of foods and physical activity?

In general terms a 'should' narrative around something makes a negative connotation, it can inspire guilt for not doing the thing, and even create a negative feeling around the thing because it's a concrete 'should' rather than pertaining to an expected outcome. It almost becomes a moral imperative. If instead it was that eating certain things feeds your body nutrients and makes it stronger and less likely to get sick - then it becomes more of a choice - I choose to look after my body therefore I WANT to eat this food. Suddenly it's not like like a parent berating you, but like an empowered choice you're making. And in theory without the guilt loading it's more likely to happen.

#35 CallMeFeral

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:21 PM

View Post~LemonMyrtle~, on 14 June 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

I’ve also seen a trend of people diagnosing and treating their ailments with food changes, without proper medical care or advice. Like those Facebook posts that say drinking lemon juice will stop heart attacks, or water in the mornings will cure your arthritis, or whatever other silly stuff they come up with. People believe it and change their diet, based on dodgy information. This can be dangerous.

Oh yeah I have such mixed feelings on this stuff. More and more I'm seeing articles on 'gut health related to X', today the ones I've seen are on mood. And although they are probably right because body and mind don't work in isolation, I feel like people take that evidence based finding and run with it to all sorts of non evidence based conclusions. As much as gut health seems to affect everything, we aren't at the stage of knowledge yet where we can specify what we need to do with our food (or poo transplants) to help most of those things, but there are no shortage of practitioners claiming to have the answer.

#36 JomoMum

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:24 PM

We discuss food in terms of giving us good energy for our bike ride, or making our tummy feel good after eating it. We have ice creams and chocolate milks and lollies and junk food at times. But all in moderation around mostly healthy, wholesome food that is uncomplicated.

We don’t restrict any food groups like carbs, and don’t talk about them using those terms.

#37 Froyo

Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:36 PM

Choosing something as an act of self care is mentally very different from avoiding something because you're too fat/unhealthy/undeserving/whatever. Yes the end result might be the same short term, but the long term effects vary hugely.

#38 rainne

Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:07 PM

There's nothing new in any of this. Diet tips have appeared in women's magazines since women's magazines were invented. I have a 1940s housekeeping manual with a 'slimming diet' in it that recommends a cup of black coffee and half a grapefruit for breakfast, two poached egg whites for lunch with more black coffee, and some fish and green vegetables for dinner.

Food has always been tied to virtue, and also to class. Cf: well-meaning social workers (or just 'charity workers') in the Victorian era and right through the 1920s and beyond, going into the homes of poor working women and lecturing them on how they should feed their children porridge instead of bread and butter. Go back a couple of hundred years again, and bread was good (because it was only available to the wealthy) where barley and rye - eaten by the peasantry - were considered too coarse for the more refined digestive system.

It's no surprise that yet again, it's the more expensive food - animal proteins, mostly, and also leafy vegetables that don't keep for long - that are considered superior, while cheap filling bulk foods are bad.

Which is to say, I do think that orthorexia is a thing, and I don't doubt that social media and celebrity culture doesn't help. But I'm not sure that there was ever a golden era where everyone ate what they wanted without fear or favour. Intuitive eating, and everything in moderation, and food as self care, are all lovely goals. But they're not inherent to us as a species, or anything. They're very new, modern concepts.

Edited by rainne, 14 June 2019 - 02:11 PM.


#39 Chchgirl

Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:19 PM

View PostFroyo, on 14 June 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

Choosing something as an act of self care is mentally very different from avoiding something because you're too fat/unhealthy/undeserving/whatever. Yes the end result might be the same short term, but the long term effects vary hugely.

This is true. In all seriousness,  I have IBS so there are some things I have to watch.

I do have to watch my weight now I'm older but in saying that I'm not a snacker. That's not because of weight or health,  I'm just not a snacker and don't eat between meals or after dinner. Once dinner os done, I'm done.  I'm not much onto savoury stuff like crisps etc and make my own lunch most days as I'm a tightwad.

I do like chocolate.  I have chocolate every day!

#40 Mollycoddle

Posted 14 June 2019 - 02:30 PM

I agree that education is key. Health and fitness 'influencers' have a lot to answer for in terms of the spread of misinformation. A lot of the meal and snack options they spruik appear healthy on the surface but are actually chock full of sugar.

#41 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 June 2019 - 03:40 PM

Quote

And I know many people who don’t seem to enjoy food at all. Every morning tea at work they question, and decline, and mention their diets and waistlines and weights. And it’s more than one person. It’s not healthy.

But therein lies the judgement.

It may not be healthy, or it may be their way of being healthy.

I love food, even if I refuse it sometimes.I am that person at work.  Because I am at 'that' age - almost 50, trying not to gain weight as my hormones change.  Trying to exercise more and watch what I eat.

I have a vague plan in my head.  I know I crave something sweet at night.  If I eat that cake at work (which I might not actually like much, but I feel pressured or judged if I don't) then I will STILL want something sweet at night as well.  My craving mind won't be satisfied with "You had some cake at morning tea, that should be enough for you".  My craving mind will not let me sleep until it has some more.

Or if I'm going out for dinner that night, and planning to have a few wines, AND dessert.  And a steak with unhealthy, calorie laden sauce.

I know this and plan for it, by refusing sweets and other food choices unless I really want it - not what my workmates think I should have.

And yes, I am a size 10, and don't look overweight.  But I used to be a size 6, and then 8.  I've also been a size 16/18, which for my height is pretty large.

I need to draw the line FOR ME, not those around me..... "You don't need to lose weight/diet/watch your weight/ etc etc etc" no I don't - because I am careful and watch my choices.  

But I LOVE FOOD.

My message to my kids is - moderation.  Not just in meal size, but in the number of 'healthy' vs 'unhealthy' choices in a day or week.   We have take away one night a week.  Sometimes two, but will have a discussion over timin and choices- do you want Maccas tonight, or after we go to the movies on Sunday?  

Do you want to go for a bike ride, run around the park etc  this afternoon, because we are busy all weekend and are probably not going to have time?  (Especially after we go to Maccas!)

#42 Lucrezia Borgia

Posted 14 June 2019 - 03:47 PM

View PostRuf~Feral~es, on 14 June 2019 - 03:40 PM, said:




My message to my kids is - moderation.  Not just in meal size, but in the number of 'healthy' vs 'unhealthy' choices in a day or week.   We have take away one night a week.  Sometimes two, but will have a discussion over timin and choices- do you want Maccas tonight, or after we go to the movies on Sunday?  

Do you want to go for a bike ride, run around the park etc  this afternoon, because we are busy all weekend and are probably not going to have time?  (Especially after we go to Maccas!)

yes, i think i am the same. well, i hope i am. i will restrict their intake of certain foods. i wouldn’t really deny them a plate of broccoli (funnily enough this is rarely requested) - i will tell them no, they can’t have a biscuit, piece of chocolate, packet of mini bites. so i guess in their mind they must do the link of “there is good food and bad food” - i do link the consumption of too much sugary foods and lack of exercise with bad health outcomes, one of which could be putting on too much weight. i do do that. i think it makes sense to give them a reason why i will say no to their request of a glass of lemonade, but will say have as much water as you want. there’s a reason why i am saying that - and i can’t see the harm in them knowing that.


#43 spr_maiden

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:15 PM

My understanding is that eating disorders are on the rise in children. Earlier age of onset and severity of disorder coupled with more commonly seen presentations equalling higher incidence.

Yes, I do think eating fads could play a part in this.. it is not as simple as just that clearly. I do recall a specialist encouraging this path for a thesis as there's not enough research focusing on the impacts of fad diets that encourage restrictive eating on children's long term eating habits. I do think there may be something in it.

#44 kimasa

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:29 PM

I moved myself from my phone to my laptop for this so apologies in advance for the essay I'm about to type because man, this is so my topic.

I think the "good food vs bad food" thing is entirely irrelevant to the state of talks around nutrition today.

What I see is the big, huge problem is that dietary advice is becoming widely published both online and in print by laypeople and it's being accepted as fact. It's conflicting, it's not fact based, it's for profit and it has the potential to be dangerous.

Take "the keto diet" for example. Once upon a time this was a very serious last resort style diet for specific medical conditions, it was done under medical supervision because it can do damage to your body over time. Now we have thousands of keto experts on social media eating bowls of bacon, posting about the evils or carrots and claiming it to be healthy. Firstly, the bacon and the beef jerky and the spray cream directly into your mouth is so far removed from what the actual keto diet is, but secondly, people are believing this and following this.

My "favourite" (by which I mean infuriating) is "gut health" diets, as those of you who know we would know, because I have a chronic bowel disease. As my gastrointerologist said once, "Those books are for healthy people who want there to be something wrong with them that they can easily fix. If people with real, genuine gut issues followed that advice they would likely end up in hospital because it doesn't treat anything".

Of course people go on these diets and notice a difference in their bodies, but the exact same thing goes for Vegetarianism, Veganism, going back to meat-eating after being one of the prior two, going to another country or deciding to eat local only. These things all have reasons external to the body for people to follow them, but they are likely to see a difference in their bodies simply because something has changed.
A long time ago I went to France for a month and I lost weight. I lost weight because the portions are much smaller there and I was on a "holiday budget" so I wasn't buying snacks or things. I wouldn't call my France diet healthy because it involved a lot of brie and a lot of lactaid pills and a ridiculous amount of Orangina and not much produce because when you're buying food everywhere you tend to eat less of that, but my eating habits changed considerably, which changed my body.

In the end it comes down to information literacy, and it's not a skillset everyone has. I'll use my aunt as an example, she heard on "Channel 7" that there was a "psychologist or something" who said "in the future kids won't have any concept of money because of ebanking, they will want to buy a loaf of bread and they won't know what that money means and will just wave their card around but they won't know how much money they have left after that because there is no way to check".
Now, I'm pretty tech-literate, and she doesn't even own a computer/smartphone/tablet. So I know that's not quite right because I know there is a way to check because I do all my banking on my phone with an app. Whether that was what was said or whether she misunderstood, I don't know because I'm pretty sure "Channel 7" meant "Today Tonight" and she knows that will set me off on a rant.
"So psychologist or something... what is he exactly?"
"I'm not sure"
"And how did he draw this conclusion, is he publishing a study he conducted of money management over a period of time?"
"I don't know"
"But he's involved in the education system and mathematics education in this country, where they cover money?"
"I don't know"
"So why did you believe what he said?"
"He's a psychologist or something! He knows! He was on TV!"

Same goes for diet. We're not taught to consider the source. Many people don't even know the difference between a nutritionist and a dietician. The message that gets out is "This person's body looks like this therefore we should listen to them about food and exercise", which is something the person with the body can monetise on without any actual knowledge and that's messed up.

We've always had this. I remember my Mum being on "The Beverley Hills Diet". Wow, was that a stupid diet. She also had "Fit For Life" which was where you couldn't combine foods, so you had to eat all your meat in one meal and all your grains in another meal and so on.

Actually, talking about stupid diets, a high school friend of mine dropped out of uni to become a personal trainer. Fun Kimasa fact, I'm a qualified personal trainer. I did the 3 month course when I was 18, then I went to work at Fitness First. I quit after one month. Can I say, if a personal trainer is attempting to give you dietary advice and it sounds a little interesting, please ask for their dietetics qualification. So this friend of mine when she first started went fruitarian and was into monomeals. Monomeals are when you eat a buttload of the same fruit as one meal. So for breakfast you might have 10 pears and for lunch you might have 10 mandarins and for afternoon tea you might have 3 bananas and for dinner you might have a whole watermelon. By the way the fruitarian food pyramid says vegetables and water are "sometimes foods" but should be avoided. She preached monomeals to all her clients.
That was 10 years ago and she's older and wiser and now eats vegetables daily and does not give dietary advice because she knows that's not within her scope of training.

That went off topic a bit.

We've always had these stupid diets, but we've never had information spread so fast before, that's what's new. Information sources are different now, you don't have to either prove that you know about things and/or have a buttload of money to get your voice out there, you just need to sign up for IG and start following and posting.

What we need to change, in my opinion, is not how we see food, everyone is going to view food differently and that comes from their own relationship with food. Sometimes it's from experience, sometimes it's from necessity due to illness, allergy or intolerance. But the diet and wellness industry is saturated with people who have no actual knowledge presenting things as fact, and we don't question them anywhere near enough as we should.

Before we take medical information from people we should as "Why should I believe you? Where is the scientific backing behind the advice you are giving? Show me studies." and if they are someone who should be believed they will be able to offer you proof of that.

We need to change how we teach information literacy.

#45 Riotproof

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:35 PM

That’s a very thought provoking post, kimasa. Thank you.



#46 seayork2002

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:36 PM

One thing I have heard over the years is the way parents speak to their children

'you can't have that you will get fat'
'You never see a fat ballerina'
'I am on a diet'
'you really need to watch you weight'

and other things, so I presume kids pick up on what we say the most?

#47 Ruf~Feral~es

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:50 PM

View Postspr_maiden, on 14 June 2019 - 04:15 PM, said:

My understanding is that eating disorders are on the rise in children. Earlier age of onset and severity of disorder coupled with more commonly seen presentations equalling higher incidence.

Yes, I do think eating fads could play a part in this.. it is not as simple as just that clearly. I do recall a specialist encouraging this path for a thesis as there's not enough research focusing on the impacts of fad diets that encourage restrictive eating on children's long term eating habits. I do think there may be something in it.


Quote

One thing I have heard over the years is the way parents speak to their children

'you can't have that you will get fat'
'You never see a fat ballerina'
'I am on a diet'
'you really need to watch you weight'

and other things, so I presume kids pick up on what we say the most?
  


I'm not so sure - as I mentioned earlier, I have struggled with disordered eating since I was 15/16, and I'm nearly 50 now.  

I think it is a lot more related to anxiety and control than it is to fear of weight.  Maybe they take hold around the same formative time - teenage years, but my purely annecdotal experience is that it may be more related to the increase in anxiety disorders in young people in general, and how it is manifested?

External pressures related to the language used around food /weight etc as a child grows will obviously be influential, but the underlying issue is internal/psychological.  There is a lot more to starving yourself to the point of death than fear of being fat or making bad food choices.

Edited by Ruf~Feral~es, 14 June 2019 - 04:51 PM.


#48 AliasMater

Posted 14 June 2019 - 05:26 PM

All this paelo, clean eating, LCHF etc to me just stinks of privilege and it drives me insane.

#49 spr_maiden

Posted 14 June 2019 - 05:32 PM

Yes,  disordered eating is not a new thing.  Prevalence,  age onset and incidence rates,  are changing. Children as young as 6 receiving treatment for EDs. Definitions for diagnosis may have too from dsm IV to V?
I totally agree with what you are saying re the oversimplification and mis-attribution surrounding eating disorders. That orthorexia is about health and the goodness/badness of food, no,  I think that is how whatever the underlying issue is manifests. It's been a couple of years since I've done any reading on this topic, so disclaimer.
It's just related to a theory of normalized restrictive eating patterns can lead to disordered eating. If recent fad eating patterns revolve around restricted eating,  and these patterns of eating are practiced on wider scale, with the bombardment of information from many sources of "authority", is there any correlation between this and the rising incidence of childhood EDs?
Such a complex topic,  and you're right,  no straightforward answer. Don't know if fad diets are related, suspect that they're doing few people any favours though.

#50 Avocado tree

Posted 14 June 2019 - 05:43 PM

View PostSplashingRainbows, on 14 June 2019 - 12:18 PM, said:

I was furious this week to discover one of the options for my child to do for homework was to write a paragraph about why children should exercise more.

They’re 8.

The ‘shoulds’ and obsessions aren’t helpful.

I agree with you Riotproof.




But everyone should exercise.  It’s a proven, medical fact.  I don’t understand the problem.  (I personally don’t exercise, but I know I should as it’s good for my health)

Edited by Avocado tree, 14 June 2019 - 05:45 PM.





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